Chris ([info]randomchris) wrote,
@ 2003-03-21 10:58:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Current mood: drained

Unusual war musings
I was talking to Craig yesterday about the war. He's pro-war because he believes there are good reasons for removing Saddam from power - his torture record, human rights record, previous crimes etc. - I'm anti-war because I think the reasons we've been given are not convincing, and that the bombing campaign is unjustified and unnecessary (Craig agrees on the latter point, and I'm very glad to note from some BBC reporters' war journals that the planned "shock and awe" campaign seems to have been scaled down.)

But this got to me to thinking. Why, since there are very reasonable grounds for removing Saddam from power on the basis of his human rights record, are the US and UN using the excuse of him failing to disarm (when there is clear evidence that he was starting to disarm seriously a few weeks ago)?

There are two possible answers to this that I can see.

The first, more reassuring one is that they don't want their own rhetoric to force them to attack every other country with a deplorable human rights record (Libya, Israel, Zimbabwe, China, probably Turkey and several others) because this would plunge the world into utter war.

The second one is that they feel anyone else possessing big weapons of any sort is a potential danger and should be wiped out on these grounds. Which means that next on the list is North Korea, who have stated their willingness to first-strike if they feel they're threatened, followed by China, Pakistan, India, Libya and possibly Israel if the US can break free of the pro-Israel Jewish lobby.

I really, really hope it's the first one.


(9 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]gleninchicago
2003-03-21 07:19 am UTC (link)
As an American I feel like such a hypocrite. We march around the world ousting leaders and placing dictators just like Hussein in power knowing full well what they are cabale of. We're bombing Iraq to disarm them of weapons which our government created. We are the world's bully!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]randomchris
2003-03-21 09:04 am UTC (link)
We're not much better ourselves, as a nation. But don't feel guilty for what a country that you've happened to be born in is doing - this isn't something you voted for.

ooh, and hello. How did you find me?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]gleninchicago
2003-03-21 09:17 am UTC (link)
True enough!

I just did a search for people in Scotland and found your journal. Thought you were kinda cute =) I'm going to be in Glasgow and Edinburgh next Friday on vacation for a week.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]randomchris
2003-03-21 09:20 am UTC (link)
Well, at least you're younger than most of the guys that seem to be finding me cute lately (see last few entries!) Sadly, next Friday I'm heading off to Paris, and then to Ireland pretty much straight after I come back. But if you want some suggestions as to where to go in Edinburgh, let me know.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]gleninchicago
2003-03-21 11:15 am UTC (link)
Too bad you won't be there! I would love to know what to do while I'm there. My sister is coming with and we are going to be complete and total tourist but I've explained that I would like some time alone at some point. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]okobojii
2003-03-22 12:21 am UTC (link)
Actually, the peace treaty signed in the early 1990's after the first go-round of this war called for the disarming of Iraq, a typical clause added into nearly all war-ending peace treaties. The fact is that it's now more than ten years later and he's (Saddam) just started destroying the weapons after he had the UN breathing down his neck and watching his every move. The SCUDs he's now fired alone mean that he was in direct opposition with both the UN resolutions and that peace treaty. The US technically could have attacked Iraq without consulting the UN at all, his failure to disarm actually nullified the peace treaty.

Now... the question as to why the US/UN is choosing this cause as the one most cited for the attacks? It's actually probably pretty close to your first answer. Human rights laws are vague and, at times, based very strongly on a point of view. We know that this Iraqi regime has ordered the practically genocidal slaughter of the Kurds in the north and the Shiite Muslims in the south. However, political sidestepping and dancing could have kept such an issue tied up in the UN for years, allowing for more damage to be done. The issue of munitions in a nation that is required to be disarmed is much easier to prove by simply finding a few. Also, the destruction of the weapons is a form of fixing the human rights issues. The SCUD missiles aren't really what the US government is worried about. Saddam has used biochemical weapons in the past, against his own people as well as Iran, and is known to have several facilities for manufacturing these chemicals. There was no evidence given to the weapons inspectors that these facilities had been destroyed.

The idea of this war scares a lot of people, including those of us who support it in the United States. It's not a chance for us to 'flex our muscles' or to 'invade the Arab world' as many would think. When I watch the pictures from it on television, it scares me even more and, had you asked me in November what I thought, I would have been very strongly on the peace side of the argument. Now, though, it's all gone on long enough... Saddam had ten years to disarm and responded by only turning in a paltry number of weapons to inspectors in the last few months. His own army is surrendering to the Coalition forces by the thousands. The people in towns passed through by troops cheer and even the immigrant Iraqis here in the US have spoken out that they are glad that Saddam is being removed. The only real questions being brought up in interviews are about this extensive bombing raid going on (which, I agree, may be a bit over-the-top.. but the military forces are doing an excellent job of hitting only military targets) and the fear that coalition forces will not leave the country once the job is done(which the they have tried to make clear that this is not an occupational/colonization force... like we need any more land to cause problems!)

I realize I've written you a book here, but I just kind of kept going for a while after I started. I'll end by just saying that I hope this war ends soon and that we never have to feel the need to fight another one.

-K

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]randomchris
2003-03-22 03:43 am UTC (link)
Thank you, that is far better reasoned and well-thought-out than many pro-war pieces that I've read.

It does worry me a bit that guilt can be assumed so easily. Personally, I don't feel we've been shown any of the overwhelming evidence of weapons of mass destruction that Bush and his cabinet claim that Iraq possesses. Invading Iraq to find WMDs now is the equivalent of punishing someone for illegal possession of a firearm because one empty shotgun shell was found at their house. There was, if not genuine willingness to disarm, at the very least a grudging acceptance that it was the only thing he could do. I suspect if the war had not been started by June, and the inspectors had been given that much extra time, then it wouldn't have started at all.

Now that it's started, though, the best we can hope for is that the humanitarian reconstruction of Iraq will get the support that it needs, and that the oil from Iraq will not become a cash cow for the Bush administration. I'm also relieved that even Iraqi spokesmen have not reported any civilian deaths - 250 wounded in Baghdad so far, far less than the World Health Council expected. This may not be the most convincingly justified war the West has fought, but at least it's being done as conscientiously as possible with regard to civilians.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]okobojii
2003-03-22 03:16 pm UTC (link)
I agree that the proof for weapons of mass destruction is somewhat ambiguous, but authorities can only go by what they've found in the past. One of my biggest fears in supporting this war is that I, and millions of others in the US and around the world, are wrong and there are no chemical weapons (please don't take that in a way that would make it seem as if I hope for any country to possess these weapons.) Unfortunately, most inspectors have stated that they believe that Saddam has chemical weapons plants. Saddam is known to be developing nuclear weapons. Although we don't have hard proof as to whether he does or does not have them, sometimes preventative measures are necessary, especially when dealing with such a dangerous man.

I also agree that I hope the American administration is sincere in the statements they've made as to the plans they have for Iraq after the war. True, most of the reconstruction contracts will go to Coalition countries but I, for one, only believe that is fair. After that, we can only hope that a free trade is set up that doesn't turn the country or its people into a "cash cow" for anyone.
And considering that the power, phones, and other utilities are still on in Baghdad, it makes me glad as well to see that they are at least trying not to disturb as much of civilian life as is possible.

By the way, I've been reading along with you livejournal for a while now. Don't think me too odd, but it's very interesting to follow...especially after visiting Edinburgh this summer and falling in love with the city.

-K

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]randomchris
2003-03-23 08:32 am UTC (link)
It's not odd at all - I was just wondering when you were going to start saying something. Have now friended you back. I'm always surprised by how many Americans and/or Canadians I know who have fallen in love with Edinburgh - usually because they've come during the Fringe, but many of them have come at other times and loved it. Are you planning to come over again?

Oh, and join [info]edinburgers for Edinburgh news and things.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(9 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…